Friday, March 29, 2024
Log in Register

Login to your account

Username *
Password *
Remember Me

Create an account

Fields marked with an asterisk (*) are required.
Name *
Username *
Password *
Verify password *
Email *
Verify email *
Captcha *
Reload Captcha
Welcome, Guest


  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2

TOPIC: Sails

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #1

Okay sails, next on my list. What's the difference between a "wave & free ride sail" vs. "wave bump & jump". Is it batons, material? I was looking at used Ezzy Legacy,
Panther and Tiger styles. Everyone seems to have a spin on what's what when it comes to the style of sailing as in the view I pasted below. How much does it really matter as a beginner when it comes to choosing sails? The price difference between them is 75.00 and that seems to be because one style is a 2013 version vs. a 2014 sail. Any thoughts?

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 234
Default
To me B&J means burning quite fast in a straight line, taking off from any size of chop doing usually some kind of straight jump of basic loop, and then make a nice planing jibe in the other end. And repeat...

Freestyle is about jumping the board on virtually flat water, and rotating it along the water surface. Speed is not important, nor jibes.
- See more at: www.star-board-windsurfing.com/forum/sho...sthash.9MoPcz8f.dpuf

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #2

  • Ady
  • Ady's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Hurricane Force
  • Posts: 1776
What size was the biggest sail that you've sailed so far?

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #3

2.9 so I'm trying to determine what would be good to start with here for these conditions. My thought is something in the low to mid 4 range.

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #4

  • Ady
  • Ady's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Hurricane Force
  • Posts: 1776
4+ will be too small for you, but maybe ok for your wife IMO. If you want to progress rapidly start with something in the 5.5-6.5 range. The small lakes are flat and forgiving you'll be fine I think .

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #5

I'm looking at a couple of 2014 Ezzy Tigers, 4.7 & 5.8. I know it all depends on weather conditions and I do want to consider other family members. I want to spend more TOW than TITW so my thinking is that the smaller sail will keep me from struggling at times when the weather isn't cooperating and a 5.8 to progress with. Like you just said, having the sail ripped out of your hands. I don't want to analyze this to death because I'll drive myself crazy so I appreciate the input. I know I'll eventually get down to a smaller board but would like to get some decent sails and boom to start with and use in the future.

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #6

Since I started in 1977, I've had quivers of Freedom, Gaastra, Simmer, Neil Pryde, North, and Ezzy. In 2005 I bought some HotSailsMaui SuperFreaks and now have no interest in anything else.

I like them because they are light, durable, well-made, fast and they love to maneuver. The 85% battens allow you to luff/de-power which is great for sailing overpowered and when waveriding. The sail material "gives" a bit, which makes gusty conditions (like we have most of the time) much more enjoyable.

I recommend them to beginners because they are light, durable, well-made, fast and they love to maneuver. The two 85% battens allow you to luff/de-power which is great for learning and will save you from getting overpowered (having the sail ripped from your hands) and ending up in the water. The sail material "gives" a bit, which makes gusty conditions (like we have most of the time) much more manageable.

I use mine on my little waveboard, my B&J and freeride boards, my longboard and my SUP. And I use them to teach :-)

Freak Drew

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #7

  • Otto
  • Otto 's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Strong Breeze
  • Posts: 29
Gary,
So, apart from maybe your very first session or two, the 4.7 will typically be a little bit light for around here. That is to say, once you get very basic sail handling down - not expert level, but just not surprised each time the sail powers up and you're not swerving wildly - there won't be too many days around these parts when you'll need a sail as small as a 4.7 (at least not until you're regularly planing - still not too often then unless you're quite light. The 5.8 is a good size that will be enough power to putter around in light winds while you're still very new, and, down the road, will be a sail you might end up using quite a bit once you progress to planing. You could say the same thing of the 4.7 as well, there just won't be quite so many days that this will be the choice rig. I think you're last expressed desire to not analyze this to death is right on the money. Most folks start with a single rig (boom, masts and sail, and a board with one fin. Before long, peoples sail quivers grow depending on their interest and budget. You could do worse than to start with 5.8. Pretty soon you'll be comfortable with this most of the time, and one magic moment, you'll pop up onto a plane. Next thing you know you'll probably want a larger sail or two so you can get planing with less wind. After a while, most folks end up with a bunch of sails. Next, once regularly planing, most folks find that a large beginner board starts to feel like a 'rodeo bull' in the chop (as the wind picks up) and so the journey starts of acquiring smaller, more maneuverable, and faster boards….

... the point to all that is…

If you end up getting hooked on windsurf, you'll end up buying all this gear before too long. If you have a vey limited budget, maybe go for the 5.8 and see how it goes. Chances are the next sail you'll want will be somewhat larger. On the other hand, If you're getting a hot deal on both sails, grab em. You won't do wrong with Ezzy sails - they're durable, forgiving in gusty conditions, have a wide wind range, and powerful (yet smoothly powerful!). If you're buying Ezzy sails in decent condition then you're making a good start - just make sure you're getting compatible masts (If I were starting a kit again, I'd but the Ezzy RDM masts (you can mix the tops and bottoms to rig a large range of sails on relatively few masts). You can also get awesome feedback from David Ezzy, designer and majority owner of Ezzy, on these sails (he'll promptly analyze a photo of your sail while rigged and give you advice (more down-haul, less out-haul, et cetera et cetera). That's a valuable service as you're struggling to learn - there are so many little things to figure our - you'll be ahead of the game if you can eliminate the question of 'is my sail rigged ideally?'.

I don't have kids, but know lots of friends who loved windsurfing and thought their kids would too. It's hard for some of us to understand that someone would have the chance to learn when still young, and not be excited. We forget being kids - and we also kinda forget that learning to windsurf, especially around here, takes a big time investment - doing things that are difficult, tiring and doing them in conditions that to many would seem unpleasant. They'll be some frustrating times too- or at least some times that you feel you aren't really making progress (but you probably are). Lots of younger folks just don't have the patience or interest, or can't pass-up hanging with buddies in case it might be windy. It sounds like YOU are seriously motivated to learn - the challenge of WS will test that motivation. Point being, it's awesome to want to involve the whole family, but unless they've already demonstrated a strong interest, they may not end up truly getting involved. No doubt they'll come once of twice- and I hope they do catch the stoke, but there are so many entertaining things to do when you're a kid, and virtually all of them are easier than learning to windsurf. (by the way, you should get an award for exposing your kids to windsurfing even if they don't take to it - Bravo. Bottom line to all this; Unless other members of your family are actively expressing a strong interest, you might be better off buying gear that suits YOU. If they come on board later and you need a smaller sail, AWESOME. Like I said, I'm no parent, but I've heard it spoken of. I've also tried to introduce friends to windsurfing, and again, am baffled when they don't instantly love it and thank me for bringing them to such a wonderful thing. Don't mean to discourage you - go for doing it with the whole family, but consider buying gear to best suit the people that are actively interested. (Unless your kids are really small, then they'll probably be able to handle a similar sized rig to you - if they are really small, then they'd need a really small rig - beginners rigs for smaller kids don't really need to be a high performance sail and will usually be a specialized set-up that will be much less expensive than the high-tech high-load gear for a full sized adult serious about learning.

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #8

  • Ady
  • Ady's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Hurricane Force
  • Posts: 1776
Garry Zack wrote:
I'm looking at a couple of 2014 Ezzy Tigers, 4.7 & 5.8. I know it all depends on weather conditions and I do want to consider other family members. I want to spend more TOW than TITW so my thinking is that the smaller sail will keep me from struggling at times when the weather isn't cooperating and a 5.8 to progress with. Like you just said, having the sail ripped out of your hands. I don't want to analyze this to death because I'll drive myself crazy so I appreciate the input. I know I'll eventually get down to a smaller board but would like to get some decent sails and boom to start with and use in the future.
Nothing wrong with both sizes. But if you have to choose between two sails or a mast and one sail, take the 5.8 . A popular sayings in slalom which more or less translate to freeride are:"Go big or go home" and "No pain-no gain". Crashing is inevitable in our sport and you get used to it-in fact I bet I crash more the anybody else on this forum . I'm not kidding Im spending probably half of my time in the water on most of my sessions. Oh well, nothing ever comes easy for me ,but I've come to peace with my weaknesses, don't let myself get discouraged and don't mind a bit of pain now and then.
Anyway speed is paramount and it's what excites us the most and to get a big board up to speed on flat water you'll need a bigger sail. I back everything else that Otto said aswell.

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #9

Thanks for your opinions, views and recommendations, it really helps me sort things out and see things in another perspective to try to trim out some of the fat upstairs. Otto, you should be a shrink! When I read your response It felt like you were reading my mind, maybe I should call you Omar instead. Ady, nice to know you and the water are "ONE!" at many times. I don't mind being In the water, it's just up hauling the sail that gets old. I left plenty of DNA from my fingertips on that up haul rope in Maui (bucket list: water starting). I've been plundering the web here about bases/styles, luff length and extensions and need a few opinions. 1) Pin style or not? Prices seem to be" fairly" similar pending types, but I did hear that sand can come into play, yes/no? Especially from the mast comments you guys posted re sand. I don't like the mechanical type, reminds me of to many ujoints I've had to change on vehicles in the past. 2) Bases, opinions on one bolt or 2? I understand you loose a little adjustment and for me at this point it's not going to matter., anywho, pro's/cons? 3) What length extension? Web has plenty of dialogue on these guys. I see how it gives you flexibility with various size sails & mast combinations but what size do most of you use, or more importantly never use? I see how a 48cm gives you the most flexibility, but just thinking of the physics of a mast being set that high sounds a little bit scary to me even if there's the 5-6" that should be in the mast? Do you have what you would consider a breaking point that you would not surpass or feel comfortable with? One thing I read is where it it could be positioning your boom on the mast. Sounded like there's an optimal design area of strength on the mast to clamp it, true?
Thanks again!

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #10

  • Otto
  • Otto 's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Strong Breeze
  • Posts: 29
Gary,
I really like the euro-pin base extensions. They can get gummed up a bit with sand - though you can always fix it. I don't sail in places with lots of sand, and when I do, don't usually have too much trouble keeping it from getting gummed up (I usually try to take my whole kit directly from the water to the grass. If you think you'll be sailing in places where this won't be possible or easy, really wide sandy beaches, then you may prefer the US style. The euro-pin is easier to get the extension (and rest of the rig on and off) but, really, the US isn't that much harder in most conditions. The Euro-pin really shines when you're hands are cold or fatigued or both. Also, even though it's just a little bit easier, that can make a big difference if say, you tweaked your back during you session (happens to me some time). That being said, if you have to rig in a sandy place the Euro-pin might be jammed with sand,( rigging is the time when most sand gets in - once the sail is attached to the board it's not such an issue) then the US CUP might be easier whether it's cold or not,
The other time the small difference in ease of attachment detachment (US vs Europin) is if you have to attach or detach the sail and board while already in the water and not being able to stand. Euro pin is MUCH easier to do this with (some US bases and extensions fit with lots of slop - those are easier to attach too, but I don't like sailing with the slop . This comes into play at one of our local spots.
I don't think either system is better - it comes down to your needs and where you sail - cold water without much sand - euro pin will be a little easier - that little bit comes in during adverse conditions. Warm water with lots of sand - US cup probably a better choice. Cold water with some sand…. you may end up owning more than one type of base and extension.
As far as the one bolt or two, I think the one bolt is a better option for learning. Being able to slide the base forward just a little bit can make an out-of-control board skipping off the chop MUCH easier to control. Most of the guys that use the two bolt ones like to leave part of the base on the board because after years of sailing they have VERY strong preference for where the base belongs on a certain board and don't want it to move - AT ALL. They also probably have two or more boards for different conditions, and can cope with chop with major skill or by switching to an entirely different board. the one bolt ones sqrew on and can occasionally be loosened by your feet (accidentally while sailing). Most folks learn to avoid this, or learn to retighten it before it gets super loose. I think most people have had the experience of accidentally loosening the base with their feet, hitting a bit of chop and then while at speed, loosing the entire rig. If you're sailing on reasonably calm water, you may have to stubble to put things back together, have a good laugh and remember to check it in the future. If this happened to you in serious waves or shore break, it could be very dangerous and potentially lead to smashed kit. It could also happen in front of sexy bikini babes. For people unlucky enough for this to have happened in the latter two type cases, they probably swore off one bolt bases forever. For getting started though, a one-bolt base is most excellent - If you notice you're mast is moving fore and aft, tighten it down and try not to press your feet against the swivel tightener thingy so much.
The position of the base also helps determines the fore and aft trim of your board (moving it forward puts the mast pressure more forward and thus puts more of the board in contact with the water when you're planing - this keeps the board more firmly planted on the water for better control. If however, you can keep the board in control and keep the base back, less of the board will be in contact with the water, which will create less drag (less wetted surface area) and is ultimately even faster (if you can keep it under control). Way down the road you may be sailing waves were your base loosening up could be a mortal danger - until then you'll likely appreciate being able to easily adjust the trim on your board without tools and on the water. Moving the base can also help you tweak the center of effort (for different sized sails in relation to your centerboard, and later foot straps and fins (center of lateral resistance) - this can make it easier to get the board to point upwind or downwind - whichever may be presenting a challenge at the time.
For the extension length, I'd say buy a long one to start. You don't really know what your next sail acquisition will be. When it comes time to buy a new sail, you may end up having to buy a new mast, and potentially a new boom. These things end up getting purchased all at one time and readily add up. Even if you only need a short or medium extension now, if you get a long one, you can cover short, medium and long, which you may need in the future (and at which time, in addition to the sail you were planning on buying, you may end up having to foot the bill for a mast and possibly a larger boom as well.
I busted a Chinock aluminum extension once - it broke at about 12 cm and it was set to extend the mast 20 cm. A large wave and a sandbar were involved, and I feel very fortunate the extension broke as I imagine it would have otherwise been my mast. Windsurfing equipment is made pretty tuff, but it can't possibly be built to withstand all the possible forces that could end up acting on it (accidents, collisions, et cetera). Under normal sailing conditions how much extra force is an extension or mast subject when at a longer vs shorter extension? I presume a longer extension is built to handle these forces under normal sailing conditions (at least when the extension is new or undamaged). I weigh about 240 pounds and was a pretty aggressive learner (If I had good run going towards shore, I usually found out how shallow the water was by hitting bottom at full speed with my fin). For a long time a had a 520cm mast that I used at 38cm extension. I slammed that thing into every imaginable things I could (completely smashed the nose off a BIC 293D (which are made to withstand abuse) and also knocked some other chunks out of the rails. I'm less reckless with my gear now - but when I was learning I took so many hard falls without trying that it seemed silly to be careful at other times . I never had an issue with a long mast, highly extended, under normal sailing conditions including typical learning mistakes.

I bet a highly extended extension would be subject to more stress than a less-extended extension when loaded excessively in compression. Especially if simultaneously while being hit from the side (like if your rig gets slammed upside down (mast tip first) into a sandbar and your board, leg. or head whacks the extension or mast from the side at the same time while the board and wave are slamming down on your mast. I think this is what i did (though only moderately extended). If this happens to you, be grateful that you and any of your gear survived. In summary, I don't think highly extending a well made extension or mast should cause gear failure during normal sailing (excluding crazy crashes in large waves, shore break, or with other solid objects). HIghly extending a shorter than recommended mast to reach the recommend luff length on a sail may cause issues with the sail rigging and handling properly, but that's a different story. There are times when long extensions are appropriate, useful and as long as you don't clamp you're boom too low, safe.

As far as where the boom gets clamped to the mast - yes portions of the mast are built stronger for clamping a boom. If you tend to clamp your boom on the higher side, then you shouldn't have a problem with long extensions. If you're shorter and like a low boom, you'll want to be more careful with how far you extend your mast. Some masts have different graphics or weave patterns in the reinforced areas - others don't. Always use the least amount of pressure necessary to keep your boom in place, and if you use a skinny mast adapter with your boom, make sure it contacts the mast evenly, and that the boom head contacts the adapter evenly as well.

One more thing about extension - I picked up one of the North RATCHET type (2.0- the first generation had some issues with durability). They are a bit more pricey than other extensions, but, I'd say definitely worth it (Especially with larger sails or when tuning your downhaul (you can easily tune your down-haul (even on huge sails in the water, in deep water. Most sailors already have extensions that work well for them - in which case, I wouldn't necessarily tell them to run out and buy one. But if you ever tune your downhaul or use a rigging cleat, or certainly if you are thinking of buying a rig winch, and especially if you don't have ANY extensions at all, it's a great product. Most people adjust their outhaul from time to time on the water, but usually only tune the downhaul when rigging -then leave it for the day, or at least until they come off the water. The North Extension makes adjusting the downhaul as easy as adjusting your outhaul. Once it becomes this easy, you end up adjusting it as soon as you think it might help, and realize that, just like adjusting your outhaul, quick downhaul adjustments can make a big difference too. I'd strongly recommend this to anyone who does't already have an extension. I think I had to order mine from the UK. - still worth it.


Well Gary, you certainly don't jump into things half-cocked. I think you've inquired about nearly every bit of kit. That's wise …. just as long as you ultimately put all your new consumer wisdom to good use. …..I'm starting to suspect Garry isn't actually interested in learning to windsurf at all -he's conducting marketing research.

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #11

  • Ady
  • Ady's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Hurricane Force
  • Posts: 1776
I like the idea of keeping it simple, but having more options at the same time. I have one each short and long RDM extensions and couple of US cup, one bolt, tendon U-joints in my windsurfing tools and parts bag which I always have with me on windsurfing trips.

Sails 8 years 10 months ago #12

Otto you bring up some very good points about the gear including things one might encounter with it on the water. I also have this image now in my head of you coming ashore carving a 50' path up the beach as sand pails and shovels are flying as women are screening in terror to retrieve their children just in the nick of time. I've already been searching the web for the initial quiver. I think determining and finding the board will be the biggest challenge. As my wife says when I'm trying to decide on something, "For Gods sake you're not going to be marry it, so just pick one you like!" You said it Ady, "Keeping it simple "
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2
Time to create page: 0.215 seconds